National African American Gun Assoc.

[n0rlf]

serious response:

in general i don't think the greater shooting community has values that align with african americans. as we've discussed here, open racism is accepted and generally white shooters don't extend concepts of freedom, self reliance, and self defense to african americans.

i've personally been in face-to-face spaces and internet spaces where i was made to feel unwelcome -- sometimes explicitly and sometimes because of tacit acceptance of racism.

here's a quote about racism even here:

Don't really know what to tell you. Unless the admins/mods (if any have even been appointed yet) step down on it, it's probably going to be a thing that continues here. I'd suggest PMing fsnadmin.

so sometimes these things are hard for us to navigate -- i used to be against the idea of self segregation but sometimes it is the only way to create a space that is safe for us.

If anyone sees anything they deem racist we would exec it to be reorted. We do not see every post. Always a hard call over what some may be offended by and others freedom of expression.

[mikem]

serious response:

in general i don't think the greater shooting community has values that align with african americans. as we've discussed here, open racism is accepted and generally white shooters don't extend concepts of freedom, self reliance, and self defense to african americans.

i've personally been in face-to-face spaces and internet spaces where i was made to feel unwelcome -- sometimes explicitly and sometimes because of tacit acceptance of racism.

here's a quote about racism even here:

Don't really know what to tell you. Unless the admins/mods (if any have even been appointed yet) step down on it, it's probably going to be a thing that continues here. I'd suggest PMing fsnadmin.

so sometimes these things are hard for us to navigate -- i used to be against the idea of self segregation but sometimes it is the only way to create a space that is safe for us.

If anyone sees anything they deem racist we would exec it to be reorted. We do not see every post. Always a hard call over what some may be offended by and others freedom of expression.

right -- i'm not complaining, just pointing out that some spaces (including this one) can be difficult for people of color to navigate. also what some people consider racist, others consider acceptable. these differences are often drawn on racial lines. sometimes it is difficult/tiring to have to explain how certain behavior can be problematic or alienating. people have called me racist here an on other sites, for example, for pointing out behavior that was problematic to me. it seems like the more polite and measured i am, the fiercer the backlash.

rarely -- if ever -- have i encountered empathy when i point out these issues. 100% of the time that i can recall, i've been labeled racist or otherwise gaslighted (gaslit?) for it.

so again, i'm not here to complain -- i there's nothing new that goes on here or anywhere else. i'm just trying to explain why people of color might self segregate. personally, i would love it larger "mainstream" (ie, predominantly white) gun spaces were more accepting of african americans and other people of color.

eta: when it comes to what some may be offended by:

as a mod, it doesn't matter what some might be offended by. this is, presumably, your space -- your community. in a way, it is up to you to decide what is offensive/abhorrent to you. AND it is important to listen to the members. there shouldn't be a notion of "free speech". it doesn't exist in private communities. it is difficult for people of color to speak up -- it can get exhausting to have to explain why certain things are offensive or alienating. dealing with the, often bad faith, semantic arguments that ensue can be daunting. if making an inclusive community is one of your goals, i think that requires some thought about what the maintainers feel is appropriate and active monitoring. that in addition to responding to reports.

if being inclusive to the broader shooting community is your goal, then alienating a few people who say problematic things is worth it. allowing people to say problematic things quietly alienates would-be-members. and again, allowing problematic speech in the guise of "free speech" is a cop out since, again, it doesn't exist here. to me, beating the "free speech" drum is just a way to provide cover while condoning activity that you agree with.

[n0rlf]

serious response:

in general i don't think the greater shooting community has values that align with african americans. as we've discussed here, open racism is accepted and generally white shooters don't extend concepts of freedom, self reliance, and self defense to african americans.

i've personally been in face-to-face spaces and internet spaces where i was made to feel unwelcome -- sometimes explicitly and sometimes because of tacit acceptance of racism.

here's a quote about racism even here:


so sometimes these things are hard for us to navigate -- i used to be against the idea of self segregation but sometimes it is the only way to create a space that is safe for us.

If anyone sees anything they deem racist we would exec it to be reorted. We do not see every post. Always a hard call over what some may be offended by and others freedom of expression.

right -- i'm not complaining, just pointing out that some spaces (including this one) can be difficult for people of color to navigate. also what some people consider racist, others consider acceptable. these differences are often drawn on racial lines. sometimes it is difficult/tiring to have to explain how certain behavior can be problematic or alienating. people have called me racist here an on other sites, for example, for pointing out behavior that was problematic to me. it seems like the more polite and measured i am, the fiercer the backlash.

rarely -- if ever -- have i encountered empathy when i point out these issues. 100% of the time that i can recall, i've been labeled racist or otherwise gaslighted (gaslit?) for it.

so again, i'm not here to complain -- i there's nothing new that goes on here or anywhere else. i'm just trying to explain why people of color might self segregate. personally, i would love it larger "mainstream" (ie, predominantly white) gun spaces were more accepting of african americans and other people of color.

eta: when it comes to what some may be offended by:

as a mod, it doesn't matter what some might be offended by. this is, presumably, your space -- your community. in a way, it is up to you to decide what is offensive/abhorrent to you. AND it is important to listen to the members. there shouldn't be a notion of "free speech". it doesn't exist in private communities. it is difficult for people of color to speak up -- it can get exhausting to have to explain why certain things are offensive or alienating. dealing with the, often bad faith, semantic arguments that ensue can be daunting. if making an inclusive community is one of your goals, i think that requires some thought about what the maintainers feel is appropriate and active monitoring. that in addition to responding to reports.

if being inclusive to the broader shooting community is your goal, then alienating a few people who say problematic things is worth it. allowing people to say problematic things quietly alienates would-be-members. and again, allowing problematic speech in the guise of "free speech" is a cop out since, again, it doesn't exist here. to me, beating the "free speech" drum is just a way to provide cover while condoning activity that you agree with.

I sid freedom of expression meaning they can choose to express themselves however they want and yes that is subject to the moderation of the board of course. I did not say freedom of speech as it raises just the points you did. There is a difference.

As for it being the Mod's space....well, no it is the community space. I feel it is here for the members and we just ry to maintain civility. Anything over the top is going to get handled.

Now for my personal thoughts, there are way too many people that are too easily offended by too many things. Get over it already, it is life, it is not changing. learn to deal with it like others have. I tend to be more of the type that will treat you and anyone else in the same way I do everyone. Right up until you demonstrate you do ot deserve that respect. That can be done in any number of ways. hate speech, rudeness, disrespect of elders, vets, women, kids...etc. In other words....don't be an arsehole and I will not treat you like one.

Of corse everyone has their own way of dealing with life and other human beings. I tend to stay in the leave me and mine free to do as I please and i will return the favor. Too bad others canot do it and feel the need to clain offense or "Gaslighting" at every little thing. But alas, that is just my opinion and it and $2 won't even get you a cup of coffee these days.

[Skoll]

What I want to know is why mr "please lock and delete this account" still posts on a forum he doesn't feel welcome at?

[mikem]

What I want to know is why mr "please lock and delete this account" still posts on a forum he doesn't feel welcome at?

you're absolutely right. i do come out of a kind of morbid curiosity. i saw this thread as an opportunity to have an open and honest discussion about this issue and i took a chance.

but yes -- please delete it. it is interesting how a sincere post about why people of color don't feel comfortable in the mainstream shooting community turns into, "why haven't you left," and, "i think people are too easily offended." not, "hey -- i kind of understand what you're saying. what can we do?"

so i hope you can see how, as one person of color, it can be difficult to raise these kind of issues when they fall on deaf or even hostile ears.

this is just a small example of what makes these spaces problematic -- playing out as we discuss that very topic!

but yes, as usual: please delete this account, posts, and associated data if possible. that'll prevent me from bothering to post. it is actually more for me than you. i almost can't help myself when i hope that this community was better.

[n0rlf]

What I want to know is why mr "please lock and delete this account" still posts on a forum he doesn't feel welcome at?

you're absolutely right. i do come out of a kind of morbid curiosity. i saw this thread as an opportunity to have an open and honest discussion about this issue and i took a chance.

but yes -- please delete it. it is interesting how a sincere post about why people of color don't feel comfortable in the mainstream shooting community turns into, "why haven't you left," and, "i think people are too easily offended." not, "hey -- i kind of understand what you're saying. what can we do?"

so i hope you can see how, as one person of color, it can be difficult to raise these kind of issues when they fall on deaf or even hostile ears.

this is just a small example of what makes these spaces problematic -- playing out as we discuss that very topic!

but yes, as usual: please delete this account, posts, and associated data if possible. that'll prevent me from bothering to post. it is actually more for me than you. i almost can't help myself when i hope that this community was better.

Nothing hostile intended, why though do we have to change of doo something different? Why does any group need to accommodate rather than the rest assimilating? We like it the way it is and do not want it changed to how it is where ever someone else is from. That is why Florida has changed for the worse, folks from elsewhere wanting to make it different! That is not about color or race just people.

So no there is no need to delete anything. No one is pushing you out. You are as welco.e as anyone else. Just realize playing sad me picked on me race me or any other woh is me never gets to far in any gun community.

Now, what would you like to see here that you do not? What is being perceived as not welcoming?

[mikem]

Nothing hostile intended, why though do we have to change of doo something different? Why does any group need to accommodate rather than the rest assimilating? We like it the way it is and do not want it changed to how it is where ever someone else is from. That is why Florida has changed for the worse, folks from elsewhere wanting to make it different! That is not about color or race just people.

So no there is no need to delete anything. No one is pushing you out. You are as welco.e as anyone else. Just realize playing sad me picked on me race me or any other woh is me never gets to far in any gun community.

Now, what would you like to see here that you do not? What is being perceived as not welcoming?

here is the most relevant, to me, quote from your response:

Why does any group need to accommodate rather than the rest assimilating? We like it the way it is and do not want it changed to how it is where ever someone else is from. That is why Florida has changed for the worse, folks from elsewhere wanting to make it different!

i take that to mean that you're not willing to change. i appreciate you asking but i don't think i could articulate it in a way that would be acceptable to you since you start with the notion that you're not interested in changing. what i'm understanding from you is that you have what you want here. i'm afraid it'd just drag out into a bad-faith semantic argument because that has been my experience almost 100% of the time.

and really my goal was to express why people of color form their own groups since that was asked and i didn't feel like it was being answered well. i figured i'd give a first-hand account as someone who's been a part of those type of groups in the past. i'm not looking to change how things work here. nor am i "playing" anything. i am genuinely saddened and disheartened by some of the posts i see here and elsewhere -- no playing. and i'm not alone. frankly, i feel like you and everyone else can identify these things without my help. what saddens me aren't the posts but the fact that they're tolerable if not encouraged at times.