Jeff Cooper opines on the Beretta M9's adoption. Or, how he shows he was just a curmudgeon.

If it doesn't fit in any of the other forums, post it here!
Post Reply
Miami_JBT
Posts: 845
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:17 pm
Location: Big Bend
Contact:

Jeff Cooper opines on the Beretta M9's adoption. Or, how he shows he was just a curmudgeon.

Post by Miami_JBT »

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Upon reading the 1985 article. It is clear that Col. Cooper was confused on the purpose of a DA/SA gun. He clearly was a curmudgeon even in the 1980s. While Cooper and others laid the foundations of the modernistic shooting we have today. A number of his contemporaries were able to adapt and learn and understand that the era of the single stack SAO .45 was coming to an end and the Wonder-Nines were the future.

Jumping to 1986, you again see the same exact hatred for anything that wasn't his beloved CZ-75 pattern pistol or 1911 slab side .45 Auto.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

The entire mindset behind a gun like the Model 645 is that the gun is carried with the safety off and hammer down. The DA pull makes it better for the shooter to bring the gun into action. Something that famed German Gunsmith and Designer, L.W. Seecamp learned in WWII.

Cooper really has no understanding of what modern defensive pistol shooting was evolving into being. Guns like the Beretta 92 and S&W 645 were never intended to be carried with a safety engaged. The safety is a decocker, something his beloved CZ-75 does not have and was a danger until B variants were made since a slip of the hammer while manually decocking the gun meant it could go off.

What's even funnier is his dismissal of the 5.56x45mm and the M16 in the 1985 Beretta M9 article but he praises the cartridge in his review of the Mini-14 ten years earlier in his 1975 article.

Image
Image

Now, we all know I have a soft spot for the Mini-14. But even I know that the AR-15 is its superior. Yet Cooper didn't think so. Why? The Mini-14 was familiar to him because he was wedded to the idea of wood and blued steel. He was fine with the 5.56x45mm there but he lambasted it and the 9mm in the other article. Yet he loved the CZ-75, which then was only chambered in 9mm.

Here is his opinion of the M16 from the October 1966 Guns and Ammo Magazine.
"The celebrated AR15 was the most "far out" of the carbines considered. Neither Colt nor the Army is willing to call it a carbine; but, at 39 inches and 6 pounds 14 ounces, it falls right in with the other examples.

As everyone knows, the .223 military cartridge was conceived as a means of obtaining something for nothing, in this case killing power without recoil. (Remember those gun-shy little soldiers of ours.) Momentum of both rifle and cartridge ought to be the same (if we can believe Mr. Newton) and momentum is mass x velocity. If only a certain amount of recoil momentum is deemed endurable, we can use it to produce very high velocity by radically reducing projectile mass. Hence, a 55-grain bullet at a personally chronographed 3310 fps. This, as anyone who has used a .222 Remington Magnum knows, is a stinger. At short range its man-stopping properties, even with a hard, solid, spitzer bullet are impressive. At any great distance after its velocity has dropped off it naturally becomes just another .22. The Pentagon feels that our people can't hit anything at those ranges anyway, so who cares? And, of course, it doesn't kick.

To a conservative rifleman it seems odd to use what is essentially a varmint cartridge in a four-minute-plus combination, but the AR15 will stay on a man at 200 yards and it will strike a mean blow at that range. We clanged one little pill clear through 3/16 inch of cold rolled steel at 240 yards, right alongside a .308 military. That was all the .223 had left (the bullet was laying loose on the ground), but it's still a pretty good jolt.

As with the .30 U.S. Carbine, the sights on the AR15 are good and the trigger is terrible. I don't see any sporting potential for this piece, but I may be overlooking something. If one disregards its astronomical price ($200 by the time you've bought a couple of extra magazines) it seems a very nice arm for second-line combat or defensive use."
As Cooper got older, the Gravel Belly in him started to really come out. But even back in the late 1960s he was one.

What is a Gravel Belly you ask? It is someone with an antiquated belief that a lone soldier can command a large chunk of ground with a rifle doing 1,000 yard shots from the prone at enemy soldiers that will stand tall and not in any way seek cover or be a hard to hit moving target.

I'm trying to find original period articles of him reviewing the GLOCK. So far all I've found are old quotes of him. But not the actual article.
"The Glock pistol seems to be doing what is necessary. It is not a weapon for the master, but it seems to work well and, of course, reliability is a major consideration with a defensive weapon. So we see more Glocks all the time in school and in competition. The marvelous 1911 and its clones continue to be the first choice of the expert, but only a few pistoleros have the intention or the ability to become truly expert."
"The continued sales triumph of the Glock pistols demonstrates the virtues of skillful marketing. The Glock pistol is okay. It is generally reliable, it is comparatively inexpensive, and it is available in respectable calibers. Above all, its after-market service is superior. The great part of its sales comes from police departments where maintenance and quick service are of primary importance. It may not be the best choice for the private pistolero, but such people are not in the majority. For those who feel that only the police establishment should be interested in sidearms - which includes all of the socialist states of Europe - this is a major advantage."
He really was a one trick pony. He was not bad by any means, but he refused to accept positive change. Sure, I personally still carry a gun like the S&W Model 645 or a S&W J-Frame in today's era. But I do that out of choice, not because I refuse to accept that guns have dramatically advanced. That guns like the Sig P365 with an RDS and night sights is superior in every way to my lowly five .38 Special.

If someone were to ask me what they should get as a carry gun. I sure as hell wouldn't steer them to what I personally carry. I'd point them towards the modern guns like the P365 or a GLOCK 43X with the aftermarket 15rd magazines.

I respect Col. Cooper and I am a fan of him. But even then he was outdated.
Communism - 20th Century Mass Murder Champions
R.I.P. Edward Avila - AR15.COM Founder
Check out my gun blog - https://www.newwavefirearms.com
Florida State Director for Gun Owners of America - Join GOA
User avatar
flcracker
Posts: 634
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:21 pm
Location: Sarasota

Post by flcracker »

Yet, if it weren't for Colonel Cooper, we likely wouldn't have the Appleseed program, Gunsite/Thunder Ranch, or the interest in M1 Garands/M1 carbines/1911s that has kept the CMP alive and active all these years. There's nothing wrong with guys/gals who keep their classic Mustangs, Camaros, GTOs, and CJ Jeeps on the road in the age of Teslas. Tradition and atavism keep us keenly aware of our roots. That's what a curmudgeon does best.
....and some rin up hill and down dale, knapping the chucky stanes to pieces wi' hammers, like sae mony road-makers run daft - they say it is to see how the warld was made!
Saint Ronan's Well - Sir Walter Scott, Bart. (1824)
User avatar
Deputydave
Posts: 587
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:56 am
Location: Hillsborough
Contact:

Post by Deputydave »

Cooper just didn't think you could ever be an expert or 'master' with any pistol other than the one's he liked. Although he did offer much in his era, I just was never very impressed with his views overall.

He wrote a nasty little review on Cody Lundin's book, "98.6 Degrees, The Art of Keeping Your Ass Alive" because he didn't like the language used in the book, which was very mild but straight-forward. No comment on the content, which could truly be the difference between living and dying, just that he couldn't recommend a book that used words like 'ass' in it. :roll:
Survival and Emergency Preparedness https://www.sepboard.us
User avatar
SteyrAUG
Posts: 371
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:17 am

Post by SteyrAUG »

Cooper was a genius.

He wasn't against DA/SA and did well with any combat revolver. And while he did have a bias in favor of the .45 to the 9mm, he also thought the HK P7 was a brilliant 9mm if you HAD to carry a 9mm.

He wasn't right about everything, he wasn't wrong about everything and it was mostly he ever present opinions that people eventually objected to rather than his actual firearm skill set and program of instruction.

More importantly, he was a person and none of them are perfect. Hell every once in a while I wonder WTF Kyle Lamb is thinking with a particular endorsement and he's Kyle Lamb for fvcks sake.
User avatar
MikeFL86
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:09 am
Location: Orlando

Post by MikeFL86 »

He was a man of his time. I imagine if I'd come up in the same era I'd also be a huge .45 ACP and 1911 fan.
User avatar
flcracker
Posts: 634
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:21 pm
Location: Sarasota

Post by flcracker »

I do appreciate the OP's retrospective look at old-school shooting magazine product reviews, but IMHO Colonel Jeff Cooper's independent writing projects and collections of "Cooperisms" from his columns is where his writing shines.

https://quotes.thefamouspeople.com/jeff-cooper-3880.php

https://www.wideners.com/blog/jeff-cooper/

BTW - this is the curmudgeon who made the Bren 10 and the Glock G20 possible.

https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/a ... uto/248500

I enjoy (despair?) thinking of 2A-related issues that we face today and how Colonel Cooper might opine on some of the subjects that he never got to consider.

For instance:
• AR pistols.
• The plethora of alternative calibers/cartridges available for the AR-15 platform.
• Length of pull limiters for AR pistol braces in order to be able to use a LAW folding adapter along with an SB brace without exceeding the 13.5" LOP limit.
• Vertical foregrips are OK if pistol OAL > 26", felony if OAL < 26".
• Parts count for imported firearms in order to be able to legally swap out the stock for a folder.
• Thumbhole/slickbelly stocks on semiautomatic rifles.
• Stand Your Ground & Castle Doctrine exceptions/prosecutions.
• Bumpstocks.
• Lead-free bullet laws in some states to save the buzzards.
• Straight-wall cartridge requirements for deer hunting in some states. (Ok, I'm sure these laws were on the books while he was alive, but I've never seen anything by him about this.)

Just imagine the conversations you could have with Colonel Cooper today if he were to suddenly reappear. 🤯
....and some rin up hill and down dale, knapping the chucky stanes to pieces wi' hammers, like sae mony road-makers run daft - they say it is to see how the warld was made!
Saint Ronan's Well - Sir Walter Scott, Bart. (1824)
User avatar
45caldan
Posts: 574
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:28 am
Location: Lakeland

Post by 45caldan »

When it comes to military side arms and the use of ball ammo he certainly wasn't wrong in believing the .45 was superior.
It is only with good modern JHP ammo that the 9mm is now considered to be a good defensive cartridge.


I never heard the concern before about the M9 and its trigger bar but through out its service many where concerned about the open top slide letting crud in....
rug357
Posts: 348
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:03 pm
Location: P. Pines, FL

Post by rug357 »

Having owned couple Beretta 92 series pistols in past 30 years, in my experience it's the only pistol that have never had any kind of failure...not one, not even a failure of slide to lock back after last round. My issues with the 92 series pistol for long time was the large grip and long trigger reach but that was resolved on the current pistol with the Wilson's thin grip and short reach trigger.
You may not be of my flesh and blood, but you are of my heart and soul.

Do not mistaken my kindness for weakness.
Post Reply