Problem with a sale to a FFL

[zeebaron]

So, I sold a gun to an FFL in Kentucky on the popular gun auction site.

He is calling the transaction illegal because I didn't mail it from a local FFL, and demanding I provide him with a copy of my drivers license.

I provided him with a link that shows it's completely legal, and asked him to show me the law that states that I have to provide him with ID for this kind of transfer.

He says he doesn't have time to deal with this, and now wants to exercise his inspection period rights. He says he cannot ship the firearm to me personally, that it has to go through a local FFL.

Does anyone know if he's correct about returning the gun to me? Thanks.

[MrSteve]

In state or out of state, I think that could/is the problem... In state no FFL, out of state FFL needed?

[zeebaron]

In state or out of state, I think that could/is the problem... In state no FFL, out of state FFL needed?

Sorry, I knew I forgot to type something. It was shipped from FL to KY.

[ipscscott]

this is my understanding, fwiw

while not required for you to send him a copy of your D/L, it's probably the only reasonable way for him to b sure of the info as to who the gun is coming from and he is required to log it in and for that he does need at minimum your name & address.
Since he is an FFL, it is perfectly legal for you to have shipped him the gun, even across state lines (as you already know), even though you don't have an FFL. Only the receiving party has to have one.

As far as him shipping it back to you (and this is just an educated guess by me), I would say it falls under similar clauses as sending a firearm for repair or service, which they can send directly back to you. Again, that's just a semi-logical guess on my part and as we all know ATFE isn't always logical.

I.A.N.A.L. and the hotel I slept at the night before last was only a Days Inn, so take it FWIW.

[medic0079]

all he should need is your name, and address. he does have to log it in his book, usually this is done with name, and drivers license number, although name and address should be good enough. just curious what is the big deal about sending him your drivers license? you do a lot more than that when you purchase a firearm.
(edit) guess i got beat to the punch. as far as I know he would have to send it back through an FFL. I would have to call ATF or look it up to be sure, but I would think it would fall under the sales side, which much like if you consign a gun you would have to pay a $5 transfer and 4473 to get your own gun back. stupid, but then so is the fact that we have a God given right to personal protection, and have to abide by these laws anyway.

[tony k]

Well, yes, as an FFL, he cannot return the gun to you -- he must ship it to an FFL.

OTOH, you have not broken any laws. It is 100% legal for a non-FFL to ship to an FFL.

As an FFL, he must enter it into his bound books before delivering it to the end buyer. And when entering it into his bound books, he normally list the identification shown by the "seller", which is you. Most FFLs will not buy a firearm from someone who will not / cannot provide a driver's license. While the law does not specify a DL, the common practice is for them to require it.

If you want to resolve this, fax/email him a copy of your DL. Otherwise, it may get time-consuming and turn into a PITA.

[Wulfmann]

Send him the below copied from the BAFTE web site page on shipping.
He is nuts and many FFLs are ignorant of gun laws. I have had to cut and paste for idiots in the past as well..
May I suggest you always sell firearms "as is" No returns" It just makes it easier.
If he is going to return the gun he is responsible for shipping both ways. You do not have to refund the shipping and most FFLs charge a restocking fee so hit him with that say 15%. There is no rule that says FFLs get to charge restocking fees and you can't.
Plus tell him the FFL fee will be deducted from the refund. You have every right to do that.
However, if his reason for return is his belief you sent it illegally tell him if he sends the gun back you will not refund the money which is your right because he is mistaken as the paste from the BATFE web site proves.

Wulfmann

SHIPPING FIREARMS

You may ship firearms through the U. S. Postal Service. Federal firearm licensees may deposit an unloaded firearm in the mails for conveyance to any officer, employee, agent, or watchman who is eligible under 18 U. S. C. 1715 to receive pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person for use in connection with his or her official duties.

However, any person proposing to mail a handgun must file with the postmaster, at the time of mailing, an affidavit signed by the addressee stating that the addressee is qualified to receive the firearm, and the affidavit must bear a certificate stating that the firearm is for the official use of the addressee. See the current Postal Manual for details. The Postal Service recommends that all firearms be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms.

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm through the U. S. Postal Service. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. A nonlicensee may not transfer any firearm to a nonlicensed resident of another state.

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922(a)(2)(A) and 922(e), 27 CFR 178.31]

A nonlicensee may ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the state where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.

A signature is required each time a firearm is delivered by a shipper, or common or contract carrier to verify the acknowledgment of the receipt of the firearm. A signature of the FFL maintained on file by the shipper is not an acceptable alternative.

[medic0079]

alternatively, you can just say you are an illegal immigrant and state that there is a federal law prohibiting him from asking for your identification.

[zeebaron]

just curious what is the big deal about sending him your drivers license?

Because he started off with being a mis-informed asshole, and now I feel like being an asshole to him back...lol.

[Wulfmann]

Notice on the BATFE shipping requirements there is nothing that says you have to give the receiving FFL a copy of anything.
He already has your information from the auction which is verified on the shipping label.

If this was me I would (after sending the BATFE pasted stuff) tell him to take a hike and suggest exchanging negative feedback and make sure he knows he will be labeled an incompetent idiot that others should stay away from since he does not know basic BATFE regulations and who wants an FFL that is ignorant of gun laws. He will certainly prefer to just disagree on that and let it go.

Don't let him bully you. He is the one that is not following BATFE regulations on this.

Wulfmann

[zeebaron]

tell him to take a hike and suggest exchanging negative feedback and make sure he knows he will be labeled an incompetent idiot that others should stay away from since he does not know basic BATFE regulations

Well, being such a nice guy, I left positive feedback shortly after I mailed the gun. Oh well.

[aquajon]

Tell him to call ATF and report you.

[confedneck]

just curious what is the big deal about sending him your drivers license?

Because he started off with being a mis-informed asshole, and now I feel like being an asshole to him back...lol.

or perhaps the fact that he didn't ask for it when he purchased it, and now he can go pound sand into his sphincter with the barrel of a rusty mosin?

[Big_Mike]

Here you go brother....looks like your good, interstate only one side has to be an FFL. Though, there are some gotcha's on the shipping method with regards to type of gun and notification of the contents to the carrier.


“A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922(a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31]

18 U. S. C. 922(a)( 2)( A)
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922

(a) It shall be unlawful -
(1) for any person -
(A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or
licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing,
manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or in the course of such
business to ship, transport, or receive any firearm in
interstate or foreign commerce; or
(B) except a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, to
engage in the business of importing or manufacturing
ammunition, or in the course of such business, to ship,
transport, or receive any ammunition in interstate or foreign
commerce;
(2) for any importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector
licensed under the provisions of this chapter to ship or
transport in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm to any
person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector, except that -
(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to
preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed
dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or
replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from
whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to
preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in
compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed
collector;

922( e)
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or
cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for
transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to
persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers,
licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other
container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without
written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is
being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or
legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard
any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in
interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or
ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or
operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the
trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No
common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag,
or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package,
luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other
container contains a firearm.

27 CFR 178.31
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/wais ... 78_01.html

Title 27--Alcohol, Tobacco Products and Firearms
CHAPTER I--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS, DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
PART 178--COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION

Sec. 178.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to
any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in
interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector,
any package or other container in which there is any firearm or
ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or
ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger
who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported
aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in
interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition
into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such
common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without
violating any provision of this part.
(b) No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label,
tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package,
luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or
other container contains a firearm.
(c) No common or contract carrier shall transport or deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition with knowledge
or reasonable cause to believe that the shipment, transportation, or
receipt thereof would be in violation of any provision of this part:
Provided, however, That the provisions of this paragraph shall not apply
in respect to the transportation of firearms or ammunition in in-bond
shipment under Customs laws and regulations.
(d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written
acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other
container in which there is a firearm: Provided, That this paragraph
shall not apply with respect to the return of a firearm to a passenger
who places firearms in the carrier's custody for the duration of the
trip.

[zeebaron]

Tell him to call ATF and report you.

"My next option will be to contact your local ATF agency to verify that the gun is not stolen. I will start this process first thing in the morning."

LOL, what a prick.

[confedneck]

Tell him to call ATF and report you.

"My next option will be to contact your local ATF agency to verify that the gun is not stolen. I will start this process first thing in the morning."

LOL, what a prick.

Return email with the number of the closest ATF office, and that of the local sheriffs office so he can ask them. Pick the number for the sheriff from this website https://www.humorhotlines.com/hh-numbers.asp#F

[zeebaron]

Return email with the number of the closest ATF office, and that of the local sheriffs office so he can ask them. Pick the number for the sheriff from this website https://www.humorhotlines.com/hh-numbers.asp#F

This is what I replied with:

"I provided my full name and home address to send the payment to. You can write that down in your bound book if you want. There seems to be no requirement by law to provide you with any documentation on a private sale. Again, please provide me with the applicable law if you know of one. I specifically mentioned that I was a private individual in the auction listing, and you should have stated any personal shipping and or identification requirements to me before bidding on the item.

As for threatening to contact the BATFE, you're free to do so. I don't see how providing you with a copy of my ID proves a firearm isn't stolen, so you better call and make sure no matter what. Their local office contact information is on this page:

http://www.atf.gov/field/tampa/

You can also go ahead and search the Florida stolen firearm registry here:

http://pas.fdle.state.fl.us/pas/item/displayGunSearch.a

I live in Pinellas County, and you may also contact the local Sheriff at (727) 582-6200.

I would be happy to talk to any law enforcement individual about this transaction, because I am doing nothing illegal.

It appears that the law is sketchy in the area of returning a firearm if you are an FFL, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt and have you send it to my local FFL."

[wjbarricklow]

Looking at 922 (e), it says he can't send it by common or contract carrier.

First, I can't imagine there isn't an exception to that. Maybe there isn't it's strange they would prohibit a contract carrier from doing it, but not USPS.

Second, this specifically refers to a common or contract carrier, and not the postal service.

Third, manufacturers and gunsmiths manage to return firearms to people all the time- why can't this guy? Except that he just wants to be a pain?

[GoingQuiet]

So, I sold a gun to an FFL in Kentucky on the popular gun auction site.

He is calling the transaction illegal because I didn't mail it from a local FFL, and demanding I provide him with a copy of my drivers license.

I provided him with a link that shows it's completely legal, and asked him to show me the law that states that I have to provide him with ID for this kind of transfer.

He says he doesn't have time to deal with this, and now wants to exercise his inspection period rights. He says he cannot ship the firearm to me personally, that it has to go through a local FFL.

Does anyone know if he's correct about returning the gun to me? Thanks.

Oh no, this again. There is NO FEDERAL LAW REQUIRING YOUR DRIVERS LICENSE. I imagine the link you are sending him is the recent NEWSLETTER that ATF published and SENT TO ALL LICENSEES. In any event, I'd say that if this FFL says "He dosen't have time to deal with this" you should tell them to read the book while you're counting their money.

Here is the passage you want to send them and here is the link it comes from. November 2008 ATF Newsletter, page 7 - http://www.atf.gov/publications/newslet ... 008-11.pdf

NONLICENSEE STATE-TO-STATE TRANSFER
ATF has received questions regarding how a nonlicensee may handle the transfer of a firearm to another nonlicensee residing in a different State. Regulation 27 CFR 478.30 does not allow a nonlicensee to transfer, sell, or deliver a firearm to another nonlicensee who does not reside in the same State. However, per 27 CFR 478.147, a nonlicensee may directly ship a firearm to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer for any lawful purpose. As such, the nonlicensee may arrange to ship the firearm directly to a licensed dealer in the State where the other nonlicensee lives. The receiving licensee is required to enter the name and address of the nonlicensee from whom the firearm was received. A copy of the nonlicensee’s driver’s license may be used to verify this information, but there is no regulatory requirement that it be provided by the nonlicensee. Afterwards, the nonlicensee who is to receive the firearm would be required to complete ATF Form 4473 and be subject to a background check. Also, any corresponding State requirements would apply, such as a waiting period.

Also, I will tell all the FSN folks the story of a fellow who was retarded. We'll call him Rob. At a place called Rob's Guns. In a place called Denver, Colorado.

Posted a gun for sale on the internet. Dont know which site it was but I listed a Kimber Tac Pro at a reasonable price and someone snapped it up. Sent it to Robs Guns in Denver, Colorado .

I get an email from the guy who says "Hey my dealer (Robs Guns in Denver, Colorado )has a problem. A number of laws have been broken here, can you call him?"

Oh lordy lordy.... I call Rob from Robs Guns in Denver, Colorado and ask to speak with the owner. He is FURIOUS because I have sent a gun OUTBOUND WITH NO LICENSE.

I reply calmly - you dont need a license to send a gun to a dealer in Denver, in Colorado, or anywhere in this lovely country of ours. It was at this point that Rob of Robs Guns in Denver, Colorado blows a gasket and threatens to call BATFE to clap me in irons and send me to Fort Leavenworth. Well I decided to take the offensive. I hung up on him and called the Denver division of BATFE. I spoke with a delightful gentleman by the name of Special Agent Matt Johnson. I told him the situation and he said "Of course, its another dealer that dosent know the law and its perfectly legal to send a gun out of state as long as it winds up AT a dealer."

So I ask him to phone Rob, the proprietor of Robs Guns in Denver, Colorado about this wonderful discovery. The agent as are most of the ATF people in my experience was very polite and professional and said he would.

Three days later I don't hear any helicopters so I put in a phone call to Robs Guns in Denver, Colorado whereupon I get a mumbling quiet version of what I can only recall making out of "youwererightgottago". A few hours later I get the email from the guy who bought the gun and thanked me for the intervention on my behalf.

Ever since then, I've incorporated a warning with all my out of state buyers because it is not fair to the customer to get railroaded by an ignorant dealer nor is it fair to me to have to spend this much time setting them straight.

[mulletguter]

I’ve bought quite a few C&R guns off GB. When I send the payment I always add a note “Please send a copy of your C&R or DL”, never had anyone say F… off I don’t need to. I don’t think it an unreasonable request.