Florida Shooters Network

Can I get some experienced opinion on what's going on here? I'll always assume it's me first, not the gun, so it has to be something I'm doing.
Some background first - I'm not a new shooter. I rotate between areas as I get bored, right now I'm shooting rifles a lot and not handguns. Last couple times I went to the range I couldn't hit shit, so walked away, did some reading/refreshing on proper benching technique, and went back Saturday. I realized I was death gripping the gun and scattering shots everywhere (must be job stress), so went back to relaxing. First 3 shots at 111 yards were bang on, then I totally effing fell apart again!
I checked the scope and mounts were tight, and the stock/receiver screws were tight. It's a CZ 223, barrel is floated. On bags front & rear. This was bulk PMC Bronze, ok cheap stuff, I handload but not for this. The orientation of the targets are correct as shot, I stapled it upside down and shot bottom to top.
First group of 5 were spaced out over maybe 3-4 minutes, then second group of 5 was after I stomped off, went and shot a 22 for a while, and came back at least 20 minutes later.



What is weird is how target #2 (the top one) falls into 2 groups. My shot numbering on the upper target may not be exactly correct, I can't exactly discern that detail at that distance, but it's close enough to get the point across of how it jumped back & forth.

Boy was I happy to see my first 3 into 3/8th inch, but boy did I explode when it all went to hell

I have taken some decent training over the years, but it has all been combat pistol and rifle, never had any professional coaching on precision/target rifle, but I'd like some if I knew where to get any.
Or someone could tell me it's the gun & not me and make me feel better (yeah right).

Help?

Tippy,
First thing I would suggest is try different ammo. Try a known match type ammo.
Next I would chk my head position/parallax on the scope, if it is not set properly, a change in your head position would cause a change in pt of impact.
Next I would chk my trigger control, making sure you squeeze, and follow thru.

Just off the top of my head. Keep it up

SY

Let another accomplished shooter go ahead and shoot the gun to see if they have the same problem. If they do, it's the gun/ammo. If they don't, it isn't. That's the fastest way to get a quick idea of what's happening.

If the rifle is scoped, it could be that the scope is going bad. A neighbor of mine had that problem last year.

Once you figure out if it's the gun or not, you'll know which direction to head.

Next I would chk my head position/parallax on the scope

Yep, that's what I was thinking.

Since they all tend to go from center to the left and a bit low, I would suspect either trigger control or as mentioned above parallax. Another thought I had was wind conditions if any.

If you figure it out, post an update and let us know what the cause was.

Y

Yleefox wrote:Since they all tend to go from center to the left and a bit low, I would suspect either trigger control or as mentioned above parallax. Another thought I had was wind conditions if any.

If you figure it out, post an update and let us know what the cause was.

Y

Can't see your target (site is blocked where I work), but based on this comment I have to ask the OP:

"Where is your thumb on the trigger hand?"

With my thumb wrapped around the stock, I have a problem with rotating the gun when I squeeze. Best solution for me is to unwrap my thumb and lower 3 fingers from the stock. Try squeezing the trigger with only your index finger.

Trigger to heavy or your not staying in the shot long enough and flinching at the last moment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mFEEcxJzog

Forget about him mentioning 'new' shooters 'old' shooters get it wrong to.

Wow lots of good info here, let me see if I can sort thru it-

Different ammo- besides the PMC I have some bulk Federal and Remmy from Wally World. Yes I know none of it is good but at least it's different I'm funny about 223, I don't use it "seriously" nor in huge quantities so that's why I don't load for it. And also why I don't buy really good commercial. I did try the other 2 but not in the range session in question, I did previously when I mentioned I was shooting so bad I walked away and later realized I was death-gripping. I will bring it with me next time.
Sub-moa is nice, but I'm honestly not expecting it with plinking ammo. I feel moa should be reasonable in today's good barrels. I did, however, become spoiled upon finding out this CZ seems to be able to do sub-moa with cheap ammo (like those first 3 shots).

Parallax - good point. It's a Vortex with AO, I adjust low-to-high until it comes in clear, trying not to over correct. I know the scope markings are guides, not gospel, mine reads past 100 but before 150 when I set without looking. I do remember after I first mounted it moving my head around while it was on bags to see if I could detect a lot of parallax, I thought there was a wee bit but not enough to concern me. However I did not check at that last session. I will make a note to check close, the AO should be on the same setting as when I left.

Trigger control- always a good one and one that I tried to be conscious of at the time. For those that don't know the CZ's have both a standard and a set trigger. The standard is adjustable for sear engagement (creep) and overtravel, and I had adjusted it to minimize both but it's still a 2 or 3 pound pull. When you push forward you get a "set" trigger, it's only a few ounces but has outragous overtravel since it has to travel triple the distance. *However* it doesn't bother me since the trigger travels faster than my finger once pressure is applied and it releases, so unless you are yanking on the trigger and trying to follow it back the extreme overtravel is not really an issue I think.

Another shooter- Also thought of that, problem is they are hard to come by Seriously, besides some hunters who are just sighting in close enough for 100m or guys plinking with AR's at 50, I don't see many who are really setup and trying for small-ish groups. Anyone here want to come out to Chuluota with me?
Last time I saw someone obviously serious was last year, he had a shooting mat and shooting jacket, was practicing for some sort of team competition.

Wind- it was stupid hot and muggy last weekend with almost no breeze here.

Hand/thumb positioning- excellent suggestion, but one that I already looked at. Not saying that I couldn't still be effing it all up, but I did address that.
Anyone who met me at Preacher's shoot last spring probably saw my unusual pump action 44 mag rifle, or my ubiquitous Marlin 357 lever. I shoot those a lot because they are fun! That Vulcan 44 is pretty cool but can get your attention, or when using warm 180 grain 357 mag loads in the lever, I GRIP the buttstock with the standard wraparound grip. Like a dummy I realized after the 2 previous range trips when I was shooting this CZ so bad that I was gripping it the same way (when I was death-gripping it), so this last session in question I went back to the palm and 3 fingers squeezing lightly on the pistol grip, thumb resting gently forward, pad of index on the trigger. I will check again closely next time, I suppose if my thumb was flinching (spaz gripping) at the moment of detonation that might explain something?

Nicolas & the video- going to watch it after I hit Submit, as mentioned in first post I don't have any professional coaching but would like some, so good videos are very welcome!

Flinching- always a possibility, I felt that I was not but as always I could be wrong. I am very conscious of it when shooting handguns, and can call it easily when I do.


Thanks all for the very good suggestions, I have a nice list of things to check or be conscious of next range trip! I don't want to give the impression that I'm somehow a good shooter or vastly experienced shooter, I just wanted to establish that I'm not a beginner. In fact I'm a subpar rifleman, just this go-around I have the energy and motivation to actually learn something and get better!

just a thought but you did mention the barrel is floated was it factory or home ? can you run a folded a4 sheet of paper all the way to the action ?

man i am having the same problem with everything,but esp rimfire. basically i am double grouping like the 1 pic you show. 3 shots touching 1 an inch up,1 an inch down. or 5 touching,2 up,2 down. have checked mounts,modified/improved bench techniques,addressed trigger issues,using good ammo and good guns. am getting real frustrated because at times put 10 underan inch with savage 10PC 308 and tikka t3 6.5 swede. scopes are burris,nikon,leupold. willing to listen to any comments in addition to ones given already. might need a volunter "expert/master level" volunteer in gainesville area. any interest in that?

Couple possible things.

I'm leaning mostly to muscling onto the "X". NPOA issues maybe? As others have stated, perhaps a parallax issue.

muscleing into the x sounds like a possibility for me. will think about that. what are potential corrections?

Time to invest in a good front and back bag. Sounds to me like your bi-pods are part of the problem.

me? i use rest and rear bag. having a little problem with lateral control. might be inducing some error with poor bag positioning? might need to fill rear bag more?

If you take out as much human error as possible you will be left with the mechanical ..... fill your bags and wedge the gun into a tight seated position. Shoot a 5 shot group through a clean barrel, let it cool and shoot 5 shots dirty, let it cool and repeat 2 or three times. Clean the barrel and put another 5 shot group together, clean and repeat,clean and repeat.

1. Start the day with a clean cold barrel
2. put together 5 groups from clean to fouled.
3. put together 5 groups with a clean barrel every group.

Important

Try and repeat your shots as best as you can.....if the rifle is snug in the bags all you will be doing is lining up and squeezing off the trigger.

Post your results and let us try and help you further

todays rimfire abortion-new 22 shot average 3.5 @ 100. best wolf extra about 1 1/4. had another guy shoot. he got 3" with fiocchi 320 (usually good stuff) about like what i got. he got same as me with wolf. not shooting real great today but OK. got 10 under an inch @ 100 with my 223. so,4" groups weren't all me. will really examine and clean this gun and see what happens maybe @ 50 tomorrow. i do still need to work on my bench techniques.

5.45 freak wrote:muscleing into the x sounds like a possibility for me. will think about that. what are potential corrections?

Not being sure of your shooting style, its difficult to say! I've seen what most would consider bad habits in shooting technique, but it works for someone. If it works, run with it!

For me, I like to get as low to the ground as possible. Make sure you're off your elbows, as low as you can go, (I tend to use my rear bag's "low" side, and I'm directly behind the rifle (unlike AR15 shooting, where the shooter is roughly at a 45 degree angle). Your crosshairs should rest fairly close to the "X" naturally, on their own, right before you send it. By fairly close, within a few inches.

I literally move and fidget around until I find my sweet spot, and then load the bipod using my shoulder, right hand wrapped loosely (less than a firm handshake) on the pistol grip, exhale, than slowly press the trigger. I make all minor adjusments with my rear bag, and all major adjustments by using my elbows to traverse left/right.

Hope this helps!