Florida Shooters Network

Here is an article I found that is a great read about DI and fouling. It's lengthy, but at the end it instilled more confidence to me about AR's in general.

http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/

Kind of what others have been saying, that the combustion gases and powder residue are not the problems.
At least not for the couple thousands of rounds of this test.
More than any gun should go without attention.
Thanks for the link and the verification.

I agree with you. The only thing I hate is now there's more to buy. I don't have an H buffer, or blue spring.

ever read about "Filthy 14"?

http://www.slip2000.com/art-swat2.html

I would never buy a weapon that shits where it eats...
We have kicked the shit out of whoever waged war against us because of other weapons systems at our disposal. Thank God for our Air Force!
The M16 family of weapons are a POS period.
They might be good for average Joe but for professionals it's a liability.

captain steinbrenner wrote:We have kicked the shit out whoever waged war against us because of other weapons systems at our disposal. Thank God for our Air Force!

Kudos to the United States Air Force! But no one ever won a war without boots on the ground. Boots now carrying for the last 50 or so years the M16/M4 weapon system. You know, the one Eugene Stoner deliberately designed to be a piece of shit from the get-go. I bet those hundreds of thousands of dead asses are sure glad it wasn't designed any better! Cheers!

More and more those m4s are not DI guns but pistons.

You can delude yourself all you want. believe it does not matter and keep shooting.

I sold my Les Baer M4 and it was a flawless rifle except for one thing.
In 50 rounds it was filthy.
You can tell me I don't need to clean it but carbon is everywhere and maybe a quick wipe down will get enough of the exposed stuff but the residue everywhere is just not acceptable particularly for an expensive gun.

I also have a custom White Oak target my last DI AR but cleaning it after a target session and I clean it after each one, does not seem to bother me because I do not consider it a go to depend on save my life if it matters gun.

I have 3 various piston carbines. None require cleaning and in fact it is almost a waste of time to bother unless 500-1,000 rounds have gone through.

One is a Piston M4 type, PWS MK114, one a FNH FS2000 TAC and the last a light weight Keltech SU16CA. Shoot and put in the safe, all three

IMO anyone who thinks the fouling does not matter does not think flushing their toilet does not matter.

Both do to me

IMO

Wulfmann

I personally have never found the AR-15 to be in need any more cleaning after a round of shooting than any other rifle, piston or bolt action.
In fact, over all, I think the AR-15 not as dirty in the action as many other. Just what I have seen.

screw cleaning it. i add oil to the bcg, and rock and roll. i think i was around 1500 rounds before i finally cleaned it, and that was cause i thought i was going to sell it.

I guess all those M1 and M14 owners (of which I had 6) never cleaned their guns either. I must have been deluded to waste my time with the cleaning rag.

The only fouling issues I ever had with my Colts was when using a suppressor.

Pistons for the AR15/M16 are like the accu-wedge - a solution for a non-existant problem.

^ BIG +1

I think if Eugene Stoner would have put a wood stock on the damn thing, nobody would have any issues with it. Well that, and chamber it in .30-'06...

Hmmmmm; I buy quality DI ARs and don't have any issues with them. They get what some would consider abuse; they get cleaned annually, sometimes sooner if they need it, they get lubed when they need it and they function just fine. I taught an AR15 class in Orange TX two weeks ago and intentionally brought a gun that had 800 rounds through it since it's last lube and 2500 since it's annual cleaning. During the lubrication lecture I field stripped the bcg and wiped it down, demo'd proper lubrication while the students followed and lubed their own guns. We had no malfunctions all weekend(700-800 rounds) that weren't self induced, by self induced I mean magazines not fully seated or the thumb obstructing the ejection port during partial transfer drills. I get the same results shooting suppressed, but my intervals are cut by about half.
I've seen more damage done to guns by GIs and former GIs trying to scrape them clean than by just keeping them properly lubed, cleaning them as needed and replacing wear parts like action springs and gas rings before they become an issue.
I'm not anti-piston, but for most folks I don't see them gaining any substantial advantage with a piston AR. I do see them getting proprietary parts that aren't always available when needed along with a gun that is heavier than it needs to be. Maybe I'm just too simple a guy, I can use any system I want and run it as hard I desire and still choose to use DI uppers from Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense and LMT.
My recommendation I give to students is if they want to buy a piston gun, buy it. But, don't buy it because of some perceived greatness, holy grail or talisman type idea, buy it because they want it and let internet fanboys make up the excuses for buying a piston.

A couple years ago I came home after shooting my Les Baer Varmint AR15 (DI), great gun, super accurate.

I still had my Daewoo DR200 then. I had not cleaned it in 3 years.
I was curios as I stripped down the LBC if any parts were interchangeable with the DR200 so took that apart to check.

The DR200 after 3 years of shooting was almost as if it had just been cleaned. The Les Baer was filthy but certainly not malfunctioning but considering only 30 rounds compared to 3 years.
Well, you can believe that means nothing and maybe people who flush once a day feel OK with it. heck there is a guy at the gun show that has not combed his hair in years. he is fine with it,
And maybe it is just fine but I have a hard time believing much cleaner is not potentially better at the very least.

I agree most pistons are too heavy and worse they are muzzle heavy because the piston is over the gas block.

I did a lot of research and went with PWS because it uses a very different simple piston very much like the Daewoo (which is based on the AK47) and the fact it is over the bolt the PWS is neutrally balanced like a DI in feel.
It does have a different BCG but can use any AR bolt.
This idea the end of the world is coming and it will be easier to find AR DI parts is not relevant to me. I can order a couple of spares and can throw a cheap M4 DI upper on my PWS lower.

For those that don't mind all the carbon build up, fine. I want a clean gun and I want it clean without cleaning it.

I have my cake and get to eat it.
Don't hate me because I am smarter than you

Wulfmann

mjmensale wrote:I guess all those M1 and M14 owners (of which I had 6) never cleaned their guns either. I must have been deluded to waste my time with the cleaning rag.

The only fouling issues I ever had with my Colts was when using a suppressor.

Pistons for the AR15/M16 are like the accu-wedge - a solution for a non-existant problem.

And like the accu-wedge, create a potential for new problems.

but stops that annoying mil spec rattle between the halves

Wulfmann wrote:IMO anyone who thinks the fouling does not matter does not think flushing their toilet does not matter.

Both do to me

I think the main idea behind this guys testing was to show that a DI AR15 will make it through a firing session/firefight without problems DUE TO fouling. No one is going to fire 2500 rounds in a sustained firefight, so when you're free from fire/range session is complete just make sure you take the time to clean it, like any other gun!

Erik wrote:I think the main idea behind this guys testing was to show that a DI AR15 will make it through a firing session/firefight without problems DUE TO fouling. No one is going to fire 2500 rounds in a sustained firefight, so when you're free from fire/range session is complete just make sure you take the time to clean it, like any other gun!

I do not disagree with a single word.

I clean my AR15 White Oak target gun after each shoot and would if it were a piston anyway because doing target shooting starts with being optimum for each session.

However, my close combat weapons I want something different.
What I want is the same reliability and function of a just cleaned weapon without doing any of the work.
They are not about tight groups they are about dependable fast firing multi target capable blasters and their capacity to sustain that must be virtually unlimited.
That criteria can be met by a quality AR piston gun or one of the other newer designs being made by HK FN etc but way too many reports of DI malfunction in the field suggest that is not the case for a DI AR.

Now, we all have a choice and it is a free country so by all means choose what you want but saying a piston gun is a solution looking for a problem is at the very least blatantly ignorant. At the very least

Wulfmann

Quality DI ARs run fine. Even dirty.

Wulfmann wrote:However, my close combat weapons I want something different.
What I want is the same reliability and function of a just cleaned weapon without doing any of the work.
They are not about tight groups they are about dependable fast firing multi target capable blasters and their capacity to sustain that must be virtually unlimited.
That criteria can be met by a quality AR piston gun or one of the other newer designs being made by HK FN etc but way too many reports of DI malfunction in the field suggest that is not the case for a DI AR.

Now, we all have a choice and it is a free country so by all means choose what you want but saying a piston gun is a solution looking for a problem is at the very least blatantly ignorant. At the very least

Wulfmann

The AR15/M16 DI platform has been running for around 50 years in both commercial and military use. One would expect field reports of malfunctions over that time frame - along with corresponding corrective action reports. "Way too many reports" is a very subjective term however.

Personally, I don't care for piston driven M16/AR15s. But there are not enough real life results of piston guns under extreme combat conditions ( 1 or 2 years at best?) to unconditionally say that they are the equal of or better than DI guns. That is blatantly ignorant.

mjmensale wrote:

Wulfmann wrote:However, my close combat weapons I want something different.
What I want is the same reliability and function of a just cleaned weapon without doing any of the work.
They are not about tight groups they are about dependable fast firing multi target capable blasters and their capacity to sustain that must be virtually unlimited.
That criteria can be met by a quality AR piston gun or one of the other newer designs being made by HK FN etc but way too many reports of DI malfunction in the field suggest that is not the case for a DI AR.

Now, we all have a choice and it is a free country so by all means choose what you want but saying a piston gun is a solution looking for a problem is at the very least blatantly ignorant. At the very least

Wulfmann

The AR15/M16 DI platform has been running for around 50 years in both commercial and military use. One would expect field reports of malfunctions over that time frame - along with corresponding corrective action reports. "Way too many reports" is a very subjective term however.

Personally, I don't care for piston driven M16/AR15s. But there are not enough real life results of piston guns under extreme combat conditions ( 1 or 2 years at best?) to unconditionally say that they are the equal of or better than DI guns. That is blatantly ignorant.

Nor is there a body of evidence that it was fouling from the DI system that caused the malfunctions (at least that I have seen or heard of); as most that I have heard of were attributed to the environment, not the DI system.
But hey, everyone has there preferences.