Florida Shooters Network

Author Comment
Nick Ward
Moderator
Posts: 82
(4/12/01 8:05 am)

.223 vs. 5.56 ?
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Are these calibers the same?

I've recently read where they were different, like one's a civilian designation and the other is military, but that the 5.56 has been reconfigured to the same specifications as the .223.

I always thought they were the same thing, that maybe one was a NATO designation and the other a commercial one.

Anyone know the scoop on this? Thanks!


Nick

SKSseven
Administrator
Posts: 379
(4/12/01 6:12 pm)

Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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there both the same round, juse one is Nato mesurements and the other is civvie 5.56mm nato .223 cal civ I guess it depends where you buy your ammo...

new ar guy
Registered User
Posts: 1
(4/13/01 11:52 pm)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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That is not accurate. A 5.56 chamber is slightly tighter than a .223 chamber. Also, the bass on a .223 round is slightly thinner inside the neck area than that of a 5.56 round.

Shooting a 5.56 round in a .223 chamber may be dangerous. Some poeple have done so without problems and may continue to do so. But the chance exists the pressure of a 5.56 round shot in a tighter .223 chamber could become way too high. On the other hand, a slightly longer 5.56 chamber can safely shoot eitrher.

5.56 Ammo includes Winchester Q3131 and Q3131A, IMI M193 and M855, SS109 and about any military surpluss. There are more.

AR15 manufacturers who use the 5.56 chamber are:
Armalite built after mid 2000, before that are .223
Bushmaster, except their DCM
Colt
DPMS, even though they are marked .223
Wilson Combat built after mid 200, before that are .223

AR's which are .223 include
Olymipic Arms
M&A
Model 1
Proffesional Ordinance
Hesse
Victor Arms

Does anyone know what RRA is using? For more info check out AR15.com. Loads of people more qualified than me who could break it down very precisely for you there...

SKSseven
Administrator
Posts: 397
(4/13/01 11:57 pm)

Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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good info! I did not know that, can someone produce a chart with excat mesurements? what about the south african battle packs I have been useing? I need more info on this topic. Don't want to screw up my rifles.

Edited by: SKSseven at: 4/13/01 11:01:45 pm

new ar guy
Registered User
Posts: 3
(4/14/01 12:10 am)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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SA battle packs is military surplus and is 5.56, I will find the link with the specific charts and measurment differences and post later

SKSseven
Administrator
Posts: 398
(4/14/01 12:20 am)

Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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that's what made me assume that it was only a difference in # due to military standards. all the surplus I get is 5.56, everything store brought is .223

mjmensale
Registered User
Posts: 1
(4/14/01 8:49 pm)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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new ar guy wrote - "A 5.56 chamber is slightly tighter than a .223 chamber."

Close but backwards. A true mil-spec 5.56 chamber will be slightly looser than the .223 chamber. The military is looking for reliability over match quality accuracy. Which isn't to say a 5.56 chambered gun isn't accurate! Just more reliable feeding and extraction. After all, the military target is most likely shooting back at you.

Also, 5.56 ammo is loaded hotter than SAMMI specs allow for .223 ammo and will also include flash retardent in the powder.

Moe

chip3797
Moderator
Posts: 90
(4/14/01 10:41 pm)

Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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I have a DPMS M-4 barrel. I shoot .223 is that wrong? TIA
chip3797

Nick Ward
Moderator
Posts: 102
(4/15/01 12:40 am)

Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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This is all good info! However, I spoke with a gent tonight at my local ammo store and he said the .223 and 5.56 were the same, like the .308 and 7.62 are the same.

So now I'm wondering - are the .308 and 7.62 really the same? Or are their differences similar to those of the lighter caliber?

new ar guy
Registered User
Posts: 4
(4/15/01 1:46 am)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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Whoops, youre right, I wrote that backwards. I should slow down when I type...

The DPMS is marked .223, but is really a 5.56. Like it says in the post, a 5.56 chamber will be absolutely fine with either 5.56 or .223, so you are just fine. A DPMS rep who moderates the DPMS forum on AR15.com wrote at least one of the reasons they mark their rifles .223 instead of 5.56 is because most people dont know what 5.56 is.

Including the guy at the ammo store you went to Nick. Most folks dont know the difference. The more I learn about guns the more I learn that listening to gun shop guru's is a mistake. Find out for yourself.

traevin
Registered User
Posts: 11
(4/15/01 4:26 pm)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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As far as I know, a the calibers mentioned above are the same, or so close that you're just talking semantics. Go to any gunshop and ask for a box of .223 AND another box of 5.56mm (same with .308 and 7.62). See what they say (and how they look at you)

Nick Ward
Moderator
Posts: 108
(4/15/01 4:29 pm)

Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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*LOL* New AR Guy, you are so right about the GSGs (gun shop gurus)! It's a tough lesson for a newbie to learn, that after you wade through all the machismo and hard sell attitude these guys are shoveling, most of the time all you have left is a bunch of BS and half-guesses

mjmensale
Registered User
Posts: 6
(4/15/01 8:52 pm)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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"As far as I know, a the calibers mentioned above are the same, or so close that you're just talking semantics. Go to any gunshop and ask for a box of .223 AND another box of 5.56mm (same with .308 and 7.62). See what they say (and how they look at you)."

Same? No.
Close? Yes.
Semantics? Could get you hurt.

5.56mm NATO and 7.62mm NATO are military designations for the commercial versions of the .223 and .308 calibers respectively. The milspec ammo is loaded to higher pressures than the commercial (SAMMI) ammo. Also, the milspec chambers are cut to slightly different dimensions than the commercial chambers to accomodate the increased pressures.

Additionally, milspec 5.56mm ammo requires faster rifling in order to stabilize the bullet, especially the heavier 62gr M855 types, hence you find 1:9 or 1:7 twist barrels on military designated weapons. Most non-military barrels have 1:12 or 1:14 rifling.

Test it out for yourself. Load up four 30rnd mags with a variety of .223 ammo and run them through a 5.56 milspec gun as fast as you can. Your barrel will be smoking. They should all feed and extract without any problems - even that cheap Russian crap.

Try the same thing with four mags of real 5.56mm ammo (IMI M193 & M855, Win Q3131A, SS109, etc.). You probably won't make it through the first full mag before you encounter FTF/FTE.

Reliability and performance is what you want in a "social" rifle. For punching holes in paper it doesn't matter.

And if the clerk doesn't know the difference between milspecs and SAMMI-specs, he doesn't belong in the gun business, period. He will eventually get someone hurt or killed with bad advice. Find yourself a real dealer who understands "gun stuff."

Moe

traevin
Registered User
Posts: 12
(4/16/01 12:30 am)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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Again, I am saying there is no difference between .223 and 5.56mm. This time I'm going to prove it so that no one else needs to worry about the ammo they're shooting. Same goes for .308 and 7.62, by the same; but right now, I decided to focus on the former.

mjmensale,


Would you please tell me where you're getting your information? As far as barrel twist, 1:9 (sometimes 1:7) is standard for every current AR15 producer, commercial or otherwise, not 1:12 1:14, like you think.

AR owners: how many of you have a different twist than 1:7 or 1:9? Most likely none, unless you have a 24" barrel. That should have been a good indicator that mjmensale was misinformed about a good many things he had to say in his post.

Also according to every ammo site on the net I've ever done business with, there is no difference between .223 and 5.56mm, including the SS109 and M855 mil-spec AP ammo you listed.

Why aren't these reputable ammo suppliers telling anyone that there's a difference? As one would expect, .223 and 5.56mm are used interchangably every single time. So what's the difference: other than bullet weight (55gr vs 62gr) there is none. And for your information, I've fired at least a case of SS109 and M855 mil-spec ammo without any FTF's, not just with 30 round magazines but also with a Beta C-Mag. And I don't have an M-16, just your average run-of-the-mill preban Colt AR15 chambered in .223 with a 1:9 twist. Again, any other twist would be considered an exotic.

Like I asked before, where are you getting your info? Show me where Colt, Bushmaster, Armalite, or Olympic Arms are producing standard 1:12 or 1:14 twist barrels? While you're at it, show me where it says you shouldn't run 5.56mm ammo through a commercial AR15 (non M-16) carbine or rifle. You do have a source, don't you?

Here's three examples that point to the fact that you are completely wrong. The ammo sites call SS103 and M855 .223/5.56mm, or simply .223, if you bother to check. Not one site calls it solely 5.56mm, which they would, for liability reasons, for one, if there was any difference, like you are claiming.

www.cole-distributing.com/
www.georgia-arms.com/varmint.htm
www.ammoman.com/

Maybe none of these ammo vendors "belong in the gun business," as you said. If you like I'll list some more established vendors just like the three above.

One thing about these boards is you encounter more misinformation than facts. I'd be happy if you're able to prove me wrong and will be glad to admit it. I expect the same from you. Good luck.




SKSseven
Administrator
Posts: 420
(4/16/01 12:40 am)

Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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Mil Spec is 1 in 7" however most major manufactures use 1 in 9" look in your Bushmaster catalog it says it will stabilize most bullets up to 72 grains.

new ar guy
Registered User
Posts: 5
(4/16/01 12:56 am)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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OK, OK, here a couple links that will put an end to the he said she said. They are not the same, period. they are almost the same and the following links will tell you what is up. Sorry it took me a day to find...

.223 vs 5.56 is at:
home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/...0mm%20NATO

.308 vs. 7.62 NATO is at:
home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/...me%20round

These links will explain the specific differences between both and are a lot more exact and precise than going into the gun shop and believing what the dude behind the counter says, which is in most cases, total crap.

traevin
Registered User
Posts: 13
(4/16/01 1:33 am)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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Okay, that's Winchester, a single manufacturer. So if no one else made 5.56/.223, you would be right. Now read these articles that say .223 and 5.56mm is the same. I have about 130 more that say the same thing if you're interested.

www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m16.htm
www.snipercentral.com/223.htm
www.firearmstactical.com/briefs26.htm
www.gunsworld.com/colt/m1...7xx_us.htm
members.nbci.com/neclipse...rifles.htm



new ar guy
Registered User
Posts: 6
(4/16/01 2:35 am)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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Look, I am very sorry you seem to have a difficult time accepting they are different. The links I posted lists specificly, with diagrams, how the two are different. And what does Winchester have to do with the links I posted? The links you posted merely use the ".223/5.56" term interchangebly, they do nothing to say how they are the same, or even that they are the same at all. The fact is most people dont know what 5.56 is, which is why many places will write "5.56 (.223)" or something similar. In fact, it is for this very reason DPMS marks all their rifles .223 when they are in fact chambered in the larger 5.56. Using them next to one another in this way is so folks know that 5.56 is substabtially similar and in fact can usually be used in the same firearm. If you would like to continue this, please either post an article that shows that .223 SAAMI specs are the same as the 5.56 military specs. Just to recapp:

There is usually a difference in the interior dimentions of the brass; military (5.56) brass is a bit thicker, particularly at the case web.

Military 5.56 ammo is loaded to higher velocities and pressures than SAMMI-spec commercial .223.

Military 5.56 chambers have longer throats than do commercial .223 chambers, which reduces pressure.

You may have problems firing 5.56 ammo in .223-chambered guns because the short throats increase the already-higher pressures and can cause extraction and high-pressure problems.

There is NO problem shooting .223 ammo in a 5.56 chamber.

Ammo that is loaded to max pressure is rarely using the most accurate load for that cartridge, and most match ammo is downloaded to some degree for accuracy reasons.

Unless you can come up with specific arguments against the above info, with data to confirm such arguments, I dont see how you can continue to say they are the same.

traevin
Registered User
Posts: 14
(4/16/01 9:09 am)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=12825 Yes, I know where you got your data from. The same article that says standard rifles have a 1:12 or 1:14 twist. Do you really believe that? Where did they come up with that number???Check your AR's rifling. Check your friend's AR. Go to your local gunshop and see how my AR's have such a high twist rate. At least that part of the info from your article just isn't true. Typical AR's have either a 1:7 or 1:9 twist, easily capable of handling 62gr. mil-spec AP ammo. Show me just one brand that gun-maker that has 1:12 or 1:14 twist as the standard. You're talking about me finding source material when what you use doesn't even know the proper twist for commercial AR15's. Check here and see what these guys consider standard on AR's:

www.jtdistributing.com/

The difference is so small that the gun-makers don't even bother to classify the calibers as anything but the same. If it were seriously harmful to use 5.56mm in a .223, there would be warnings labels saying as much since it would be a liability issue and there's not. Plus, I've, (and a lot of other people) been shoot mil-spec ammo for years without any problems. As I said on my original post, the difference is negligible, unless you have an oddball AR with a 1:12 or 1:14 twist. Do you agree, now?

chip3797
Moderator
Posts: 95
(4/16/01 9:19 am)

Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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i have a 20" A1 barrel with a 1:12 twist. just thought i'd share. anybody else?
chip3797

Page 2 of Archived Posting

Author Comment
new ar guy
Registered User
Posts: 7
(4/16/01 11:51 am)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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Now that you are saying that there is a difference, yes, I can agree with you (actually, its more like you finally agreeing with us). Because there is a difference. It may not be a big difference, but if someone asks, you ant just say they are the same (which you were doing) because they are not. And shooting 5.56 ammo in a rifle chambered in .223 "can" be dnagerous. Like I said, no one is saying that is "is" dangerous, but it can be, and if asked, people should know this too. As for the twist rate mentioned in the article, I would venture to guess that 1/12 was the standard when the article was written. Because not so long ago, 1/12 was the standard with Colt, the largest manufacturer of AR15 type rifles in the world.

mjmensale
Registered User
Posts: 9
(4/16/01 12:38 pm)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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OK, new ar guy, you beat me to it. Same links I was going to post!

Moe

mjmensale
Registered User
Posts: 10
(4/16/01 12:53 pm)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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Hey, traevin, nobody here wants to get into a pissing contest, so stop pushing it.

You seem very unwilling to accept the fact that there IS a difference, no matter how small or insignificant that difference is, even when it's placed right in front of your face.

Why don't you just give it the acid test? Go talk to someone in the military who puts it on the line everyday. When you have some 3rd world Rambos trying to blow you away, ask him whether or not he gives a shit if his chamber is milspec or not.

Semantics don't count in the real world, pal.

Moe

new ar guy
Registered User
Posts: 8
(4/16/01 1:01 pm)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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I think all the info that needs to be had here is had. Without anything new being added we're all just dragging this out.

traevin
Registered User
Posts: 16
(4/16/01 1:18 pm)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/variants/

This link shows every Colt commerical variant that's ever been. If you bother to look, you'll notice that NO Colts have ever has a 1:14 twist (where did the author of that article get his figures?) and the only Colts listed as having 1:12 twists were the original SP and AK caliber series.

What's that tell you about the article you're using as source material? If the info from the link above is correct, the article had to be written before 1985 (the last year of the SP) and for some reason, it only took the SP series into consideration while over a dozen other Colts used 1:7 or 1:9 twists. Does this make even a little bit of sense? Or do you agree that it was at least flawed regarding the twist rate of the standard commercial AR15? I wonder what else the author got wrong?

If this doesn't convince anybody that it's safe to shoot 5.56mm through a .223 with a 1:7 or 1:9 standard twist, I don't know what else will. Thanks for the debate, guys.




Nick Ward
Moderator
Posts: 113
(4/16/01 1:19 pm)

Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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Folks, I want to thank you all for the information you've brought here - for me personally it's very enlightening. And you guys are the example of the caliber (no pun intended) of members any board would want.

Keep the info and discussion coming, that's great. But please be sure we keep it to presenting data or opinions, and not drift into head-banging or flaming. We're not there yet but I don't want to go there, either.

Thanks!!

Nick

new ar guy
Registered User
Posts: 9
(4/16/01 1:27 pm)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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as we continue to drag... The article does not imply the twist rate is what can make it dangerous, a tighter twist is needed for accuracy. A .223 chamber is slightly tighter, a 5.56 round is loaded hotter. Tighter chambers + hotter loads - therein lies the caution. No one is saying something will happen, merely that the potential is increased. Again, all this info has been posted already, all you need to do is read it. Is there something new to go over, or are we done?

sjsss
Registered User
Posts: 39
(4/16/01 2:07 pm)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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I do believe the original question posted by Nick was...

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Are these calibers the same?
I've recently read where they were different, like one's a civilian designation and the other is military, but that the 5.56 has been reconfigured to the same specifications as the .223.
I always thought they were the same thing, that maybe one was a NATO designation and the other a commercial one.
Anyone know the scoop on this? Thanks!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



In my researching this in the past 2 days I found this image....
members.home.net/gryphon2...tridge.jpg


This was found from a link on www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/variants/
as posted in a comment above.

Not trying to incite a flame here, but what qualifications do you guys posting the info on chamber specs have? The only one I see that even lists a profile is mjmensale. What firearms background do you gentlemen have?? Just curious?

Edited by: sjsss at: 4/16/01 1:20:53 pm

sjsss
Registered User
Posts: 40
(4/16/01 2:33 pm)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ? Further research
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Per www.saami.org/unsafe3.htm titled "UNSAFE ARMS AND AMMUNITION COMBINATIONS" from SAAMI

It specifically lists NOT to use "5.56mm Military" ammo in a rifle chambered for .223 Remington.



new ar guy
Registered User
Posts: 10
(4/16/01 2:37 pm)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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Outside dimentions as the ones in the diagram you have provided, will be about the same. What differs in the two are that 5.56 is loaded hotter and may have thicker walls. What seems to be the biggest difference is the two different chambers.

Haha, I'm a waiter, I'm more qualified to tell you what kind of wine will go best with your dinner. But this is a hobby, or more a passion of mine that I try to stay on top of. That stated, I have come accross nothing to counter the differences in .223/5.56 rounds and chambers. To me, that info is accurate until shown otherwise, and to my admittedly limited knowledge, none have done so here or elsewhere. If it has been, I would like to know.

I have also directly asked many of the major AR15 manufacturers (Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt, DPMS, ASA, Wilson Combat, PO, Olympic) which chamber they use because of this difference. With the exception of PO who always said ".223/5.56" all others knew the difference and said which they use. What they told said is listed in an earlier post.

PS: SISSS, thanks, I was looking for the SAAMI www site. I had seen that before but could not find the site. Anyone question the authority of SAAMI? For me they seem to be a pretty authorative source...

Edited by: new ar guy at: 4/16/01 1:41:20 pm

sjsss
Registered User
Posts: 41
(4/16/01 3:00 pm)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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New AR Guy....
Thanks for your honest reply.
To supplement the other info I found here is an excerpt from a previous publication from 1988....

From The following article is from the January/February,1988 issue of Rifle magazine pages 36, 37, 70 and 71. This article was written by John Schaefer.



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paramilitary 5.56mm ammunition should not be fired in commercial rifles with chambers reamed to SAAMI specifications. The SAAMI chamber used in sporting firearms has a smaller diameter bullet seat, a shorter throat and less free bore than military chambers. Chamber pressures can rise dramatically when military ammunition is fired in them.

SAAMI specifications for commercial .223 ammunition specify an average chamber pressure of 52,000 CUP. When military ammunition is fired in the SAAMI chamber, pressures may rise to 55,000 or 60,000 CUP!

U.S. manufactured paramilitary ammunition intended for civilian consumption is purposely loaded down to SAAMI pressure levels and bullets are often seated deeper to accommodate the SAAMI chamber. Ammunition certified to meet Mil-C-9963F (the military specification for M193 Ball) is only available to U.S. government agencies and private security firms under contract to provide security for U.S. government installations.

Imported ammunition of that type is generally loaded to standard military levels and should be fired only in firearms with military dimensioned chambers. To the author's knowledge, the only U.S. manufactured commercial firearms with military chambers are the Colt AR-15 series, the Ruger Mini-14 and Ruger No. 1 rifles manufactured since 1986.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




new ar guy
Registered User
Posts: 11
(4/16/01 5:16 pm)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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While I dont know about the different variety of Mini 14's, not all AR varients are chambered with the mil spec 5.56 chamber. Only the ones listed on a previous page that I know of. Isnt this all just so confusing! :-)

sjsss
Registered User
Posts: 45
(4/16/01 5:37 pm)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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I know my Bushmaster is 5.56 NATO chambered, so I don't have to worry which round I use.

new ar guy
Registered User
Posts: 12
(4/16/01 6:18 pm)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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my Bushy too!



SKSseven
Administrator
Posts: 424
(4/16/01 6:24 pm)

Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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NewARGuy is correct! I spoke with K31 on assault web today and he confirmed this. I now know why I had failures to extract on a no name upper I purchased at a gun show while shooting south African 5.56... This is very viable information and I am going to grab up as much more of it as I can get. perhaps that's why so many peoples AR's suffer reliability problems.

sjsss
Registered User
Posts: 46
(4/16/01 6:30 pm)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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NICE weapon you got there new ar guy!

chip3797
Administrator
Posts: 96
(4/16/01 10:39 pm)

Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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traevin,
sorry but i don't know who made this barrel. it is an older barrel though, that i do know. i got it from a bro of mine and there are no manufacturer's stamp or anything on it, unlike my DPMS M-4 barrel which is clearly stamped.
chip3797

traevin
Registered User
Posts: 17
(4/16/01 10:43 pm)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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I just wanted to say that the members who participated in this discussion were very professional and choose to offer opinions and valued information rather than attacks. You need a solid core of members like that to have a thriving board. It will be gentlemen like yourselves that help the moderators keep this site running smoothly when the growing pains begin.

Like some of you, my M4 upper is also chambered in 5.56mm.



Edited by: traevin at: 4/16/01 9:49:18 pm

sjsss
Registered User
Posts: 47
(4/16/01 11:23 pm)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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as posted by traevin

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just wanted to say that the members who participated in this discussion were very professional and choose to offer opinions and valued information rather than attacks. You need a solid core of members like that to have a thriving board. It will be gentlemen like yourselves that help the moderators keep this site running smoothly when the growing pains begin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I know this is OT but....That's what I like about this place. People get along and can agree to disagree. We help each other and learn from each other. What a great place!



Always go off half cocked!
Visit Florida Shooters Network
http://pub49.ezboard.com/bfloridashootersnetwork

mjmensale
Registered User
Posts: 11
(4/17/01 1:41 am)
Re: .223 vs. 5.56 ?
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traevin -

"One major problem the air force discovered had to do with the 1-in-14 twist of the barrel. This twist had been used in varmint rifles firing .22-caliber bullets and was simply adopted by ArmaLite when designing the AR-15 around the .222 Remington." (The Complete AR-15/M16 Sourcebook, Duncan Long, page 22)

Re-read the posts again. I never said COLT barrels were 1:14 twist. I'll say it again - you have a problem with FACTS & TRUTH, even when they're shoved in your face.

While you didn't resort to actual name calling (thank you very much), you came really close to insinuating that some of us were lying or misrepresenting what we discussed. My name and location is there for all to see.



sjsss -

Thanks for posting the SAAMI site and info. I was wondering if anybody was going to go dig it out!

As far as my or anybody else's qualifications to post information, that's none of your business, or anyone else's either. If anybody posts something that is a blatant lie, it will be found out in due time and exposed. I'm not talking about being misinformed or mistaken - we are all "guilty" of that at various times and I have no problem owning up to it when I'm wrong.

As far as everything I said in this thread is concerned, all of it was factual. If anyone chose to look at it otherwise, that's their problem, not mine. I don't really give a rat's ass.

I will say this about "qualifications." I shoot around 1,000 rounds a month through my primary guns - a Colt R6551, a .308 Rem 700P and a Glock 23. They aren't dusty.



Nick Ward -

Well, this thread came close but it didn't explode. I think a lot of very valuable information has been presented. Hopefully, we'll all put it to good use. I'm done with this thread. Maybe I'll see you at Pop Dean's sometime. Thanks to you and sks7 for the site!

I think this was the first major pissing contest ever on FSN!

Thanks for opening old wounds, LZ! ;=bg

Moe

mjmensale wrote:I think this was the first major pissing contest ever on FSN!

Thanks for opening old wounds, LZ! ;=bg

Moe

But on the other hand there is some good information here for the NEW AR-15 owner.

Let's just Lock this thread and leave for all to learn from... :smile